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Rolf_K
Newbie
Joined: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 6
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:50 PM |
 
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| Post subject: Salary in Shanghai |
Hi
We are two danish architects considering moving to Shanghai to work. We've been offered an intern position in a company. We have both recently finished our master degrees in architecture (6 months and 2½ years ago respectively). They have offered us 10.000 Rmb /month in salary each and no benefits. We think it sounds quite low. Are we able to make a living on that or is it ridiculously underpaid? We are a couple so we don't want to live in shared appartments in bad parts of the city but are looking to just uphold a decent, western standard of living.
Do any of you have any good tips on negotiating a salary and what points/benefits are important?
Thanks in advance
Rolf_K |
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pat_togo
Raver
Joined: Feb 22, 2005
Posts: 396
Location: Pudong & Hongkou, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 01:25 AM |
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For intern positions that's quite acceptable. People are working on a full-time basis for less than that. I believe with time it will increase, especially considering the sector you are working in. 10,000RMB a month should allow you to live a decent life, depending of your lifestyle. For better negotiation I would advise you to try to get in touch with other professional in the architecture industry to see the salary level. |
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Dreamtheatre
Lurker
Joined: Nov 10, 2005
Posts: 32
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 04:18 AM |
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It is low. You need to ask them 10,000rmb is before tax or after tax. Try to negotiate to 15,000 if it's before tax pay. My brother in law is an architect as well. Three years ago he was offered 20,000rmb a month(before tax), now he is making 40,000rmb a month(after tax). So there's a lot room to grow considering your starting point is 10,000 rmb a month. by the way he is working for a U.S company and he got his master degree in architecture in Harvard. So you might also consider international companies in Shanghai. |
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Rolf_K
Newbie
Joined: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 6
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 06:02 AM |
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Ok - well we have also heard that we should be able to make around 20.000 rmb too, thats why we found their offer pretty low. We are also wondering: Is it normal to offer an internship to people that has finished their studies and hold a master degree? I can understand that the company would be interested in a "probation" period or something, but wouldn't it be timelimited then, to for examble 3 months and after that a "regular" job?
BTW: The company who offered us the job is american owned, so they should know the expenses for unholding a western standard of living in Shanghai. |
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DragonAss
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 25, 2005
Posts: 2566
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 07:12 AM |
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10k is low, if no way you could earn more than that, at least get an allowance package for your housing, meal and transportation. |
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YariGuy
LoopKicker
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 860
Location: Puxi
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 10:15 AM |
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I don't know about architects / the industry specifically, but if the position is in demand it may be a good way for you to come over to China. Will they apply for a Z visa for you? If so just start looking for another job when you're here and once you've found one either negotiate for higher pay or leave! |
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milf
Reacher
Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 286
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 10:53 AM |
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Wow.... good living for architects..... RMB40,000 for 4 years experience!! I think a consultant, business executive, accountant, etc...... earns 4 times lower at least. |
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Joe_DVD_Hoe
Seeker
Joined: Oct 15, 2005
Posts: 42
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 11:24 AM |
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20K rmb after tax is probably closer to what you should ask for if you have no other benefits. |
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kane
Barker
Joined: Oct 20, 2003
Posts: 147
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 12:17 PM |
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i'm an architect living and working here for two years now....and i had 6 years experience in the US before coming. if you just look at it from a statistical, western point of view, then a master's degree with 2.5 years experience...sure, 10K sounds low. BUT, i will tell you from experience this, for lack of a better quote, "ain't Kansas anymore". You need to bring much more than just a master's degree and western attitude to the table if you want to be an accomplished foreign architect in China. Lots of patience and maleability.
Do you speak Chinese? If you do (and i mean well) then you should be asking 25K. If not then 10k each might be a good start.
Is your strength design or project management? If its' design, then you have a good chance getting started here since most design is still crap. If you come expecting to impress everyone with your project managment skills, it will be a tough climb. Many basic ideas of file organization, CAD managment, design sense and project protocol still confuse most of the locals i work with...tho it is improving.
What's your portfolio like? Many non-architects on this post fail to realize how image conscious this industry is here in China. It's not what you get...it's what u see.
On top of that, the architecture & construction industry is quite different here. Design processes, construction methods, standards of quality...they are all a bit "warped" by western notions and you will likely find it all the more frustrating adjusting to all this while having to do the work and provide your "expertise" at 5 times the pace.
As far as what 10k (or 20k if it's the two of you) will get you. 5,000RMB for very nice one bedroom and utilities in a respectable area of town center. 100RMB per day each for food is easy.. social nightlife, luxury items, etc..well, that's your call.
What American firm is it if you don't mind me asking? Likely that I know someone in the firm and could tell you if you are getting low balled or not. |
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rxg
Raver
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 442
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 03:00 PM |
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Rofl-K,
For 10,000 RMB you cannot even get a decent apartmentin the city. At Park One (Xin Zha Lu) the rent is about that per month, not counting electric, water and phone bills. Western restaurants are more expensive than NYC, San Fran and Chicago and other major cities in the west.(crappy restaunts that is).
But then again there are people who raise a family on less than 2000 RMB per month.
Depending on your expectation. 20,000 between you two should be decent, but don't expect to live rich. |
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rxg
Raver
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 442
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 03:10 PM |
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Our company offer interships to people with master degree, but they are Chinese locals grauduating from University around Shanghai.
You should negotiate for housing stipend - decent (But not meeting American Standard) housing is expensive in Shanghai. There is no in between anything in Shanghai, including salaries and housing and price of restaurants. In addition, if your office is far from the city. You should negotiate for a driver too. |
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kane
Barker
Joined: Oct 20, 2003
Posts: 147
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 03:28 PM |
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For 10,000 RMB you cannot even get a decent apartmentin the city. At Park One (Xin Zha Lu) the rent is about that per month, not counting electric, water and phone bills. Western restaurants are more expensive than NYC, San Fran and Chicago and other major cities in the west.(crappy restaunts that is).
But then again there are people who raise a family on less than 2000 RMB per month.
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drivers?....and 10,000 RMB min for an apt? let me guess, you are not an architect... |
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Michael
Moderator
Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 5145
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 03:48 PM |
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It all depends on how you live. My wife and I actually spend 10-12K month on living including rent and food. We cna afford more but really we are pretty comfortable doing what we are doing. We have a decent furnished 3BR place with lots of room and decent even by western standards for 5500 month. You can live well and eat well if you make a little effort in the beginning to setup a comfortable lifestyle that is not that expensive.
Onen thing I would say, if they won't budge and if they are not paying your way here ( you do your own travel expense ) is that I would have something in the contract that you can quit with 30 days notice ( not stick out a year contract. Then you can use it as springboard once you start making more contacts here, are able to develop your language skills, and find out what projects are going on.
I heard some comments a few months ago that lots of architectural firms were seeking people like crazy. You may have lot of opportunity once you are here for a bit. |
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kane
Barker
Joined: Oct 20, 2003
Posts: 147
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 04:02 PM |
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i agree with Michael on those figures....more realistic for you Rolf_K in Shanghai... I've rented a very nice 100sq .m two bedroom (at "American Standards") near Peoples Square for 6000RMB.
yes, a lot of firms are hiring...but there are also A LOT of architects here now....local competition is getting fierce...and positions hiring foreigners who have little to no Chinse communication skills and require 20k+ a month are actually quie scarce. ...that's why 10k each (after taxes) is not a bad deal to get started. |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 04:26 PM |
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| rxg wrote: |
Rofl-K,
For 10,000 RMB you cannot even get a decent apartmentin the city. At Park One (Xin Zha Lu) the rent is about that per month, not counting electric, water and phone bills. ... |
There are LOADS of decent places around for much less than 10K. Ok, if you want a super luxury giant place then yes... but my place is right in the center of the city and costs 4500 RMB for 100 sq/meters. |
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travelinjack3
FooJay
Joined: Sep 19, 2005
Posts: 1661
Location: Right Bank
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 04:47 PM |
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10K sounds low to me too but the real problem is the lack of benefits. any major health problems and you will want to be flown back home. I would be quite concerned about not having any sort of health benefit. With no family or kids then you can make do with an apartment that costs less than 4000RMB per month, food is pretty cheap, and so are taxis. Doctors and hospitals are much cheaper than in the USA but if you want near western quality doctors, nurses and medicine then that costs more money. Get some sort of insurance coverage. |
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If the billy goat was Bootsie and the troll was Maceo, then only the Godfather of Soul can really take you to the bridge. |
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Andreas
Board Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 6246
Location: 31 N 121 E
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Feb 15, 2006 - 04:52 PM |
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Don't sell yourself too cheap. To give you an idea what local salaries are nowadays, a few examples from my own company. Manager sales RMB 32,000 per month, after sales service manager 14,000 to 18,000 per month. Manager F&A department 18,000 per month. Starting salary for engineer 6000 - 8000 per month. All local Chinese staff, all salaries before tax. On top of that they get several allowances. And engineering is not exactly a top paying sector.
So your offer of 10,000 RMB per month is ridiculously low in my opinion. The question should not be on what you can survive here, but what is a reasonable salary based on the market. |
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If it has tits, tires, or a transom, there's gonna be issues! |
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kane
Barker
Joined: Oct 20, 2003
Posts: 147
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 05:02 PM |
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So your offer of 10,000 RMB per month is ridiculously low in my opinion. The question should not be on what you can survive here, but what is a reasonable salary based on the market.
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let me guess again, you are not an architect either... i don't why people in this post are making assumptions who aren't even architects!! come one.... do waiters compare their salaries to lawyers....teachers to doctors? and besides, you are mentioning Managing salaries....the guy who posted this thread is an I N T E R N.... and, since he hasn't replied, I'm assuming he doesn't speak any chinese. In general engineers, as far as i've known, have made more than architects anways, and based on your figures, i'm right. |
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Andreas
Board Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 6246
Location: 31 N 121 E
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Feb 15, 2006 - 06:34 PM |
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Engineers making more than architects ?? In which country is that, and I am gone immediately.
The architects I know in Europe are getting huge 6 figure year salaries, in Euro that is. |
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If it has tits, tires, or a transom, there's gonna be issues! |
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kane
Barker
Joined: Oct 20, 2003
Posts: 147
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 06:47 PM |
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The architects I know in Europe are getting huge 6 figure year salaries, in Euro that is.
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yes, it is possible.... but do you know for sure allll of your many architect friendss make this 6 figure salary? trust me, it's a small percentage. |
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Rolf_K
Newbie
Joined: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 6
Status: Offline
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Feb 15, 2006 - 07:11 PM |
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Thx for all the replies -
To Kane: The company in question is cna-group (www.cna-group.com) which is owned by SmithGroup USA, as far as i understand. We don't speak chinese and our strenghts are in the design phases. With you being an architect based in Shanghai: Do you have any contacts or know any good companies in Shanghai where we might try to apply for a job (that'll pay us a decent salary  ) |
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mop_iko
Ranter
Joined: June 25, 2004
Posts: 523
Location: somewhere in back of JINGAN area
Status: Offline
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Feb 16, 2006 - 12:27 AM |
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RMB10k for INTERN is OK. Because we have degree holder in Architecture having RMB7-10k salary here in our office (singapore based company).
Maybe if the company based from the US... then RMB10k is too low for a permanent staff... but still for intern is OK i think.
how long is your INTERN program? because this will tag to your lenght of rental. some owners wants one year contract minimum with 3 months advance payment (thats not including the agent fee!!!!)
RMB10k for living in Shanghai is OK. Just you need to find a cheaper place and at least 10 min walk to any subways stations. ask your company to include accomodation in your package. so that you will leave the hassle of finding the house and the contract matters to the company. if the accomodation is being settled by the company, all you need to do is come to shanghai and bring only your FELT PENs and BUTTER PAPERS.....
then when you are here, try to find more architects friends and get to know their offices to compare with your the firm you are in.
GOOD LUCK....
mop |
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Rio
Post Boaster
Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 4724
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Feb 16, 2006 - 09:16 AM |
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Just come here and seize this opportunity. If you are really good, you can always go up. You start as an intern, interns here at our company earn 400RMB, you get more than double.
Come here, work hard and show them what you're made of. |
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thewalrus
Board Royalty
Joined: Apr 28, 2004
Posts: 7097
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Feb 16, 2006 - 10:11 AM |
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| rxg wrote: |
| For 10,000 RMB you cannot even get a decent apartmentin the city... |
Most of my friends who are all professionals live in beautiful apartments, all under 10.000RMB in the city...so I'm not sure where you have been hiding Rxg?
As for 10.000 RMB per month..are we forgeting people - the position is for an INTERN! It's not a full time contract - its an INTERN position. Our Co. recieves dozens of CV's per day from a variety of different degree holders looking to have their "China Experience". Actually - 10.000 RMB is OK for an intern - we are a European Co. and we offer our interns $0 (apart from transportation costs and a pretty nice "hongbao" at the end). If you really want to get your foot in the door in China, many people are willing to GAIN EXPERIENCE for little or next to nix. |
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I carry the madness everywhere I go... |
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rxg
Raver
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 442
Status: Offline
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Feb 16, 2006 - 10:27 AM |
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To Tthewalrus -- I have a 2 bedrooms apartment at One Park Avenue on 26th Floor. (Changde/ XinZha Lu). Maybe I am paying too much for it. But I have looked at other apartment 6 months ago , its older and I cannot stand the oil residues, and even the slighest stains in the bathrooms. I have also look at Shanghai Center, and it even more expensive! Maybe I will move after 1 year lease is up. But the aprtmentment has to be new and clean. You really think 10,000 RMB is too much for this place? |
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